By Tarik Cyril Amar, Website, 3/3/25
This is another (fairly) short note trying to compensate for the Western mainstream media’s systematically inadequate coverage of Russia and its politics. This time, it is a clearly important interview given by foreign minister Sergei Lavrov to the media holding “Krasnaya Zvezda” that is bound to mostly escape their attention. But not ours.
Published on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website, Lavrov’s statements range widely. The topics he addressed included the causes of the Ukraine War, his country’s relationship with the USA (and what difference the Trump administration makes and does not make), and NATO-EU Europe’s obstructionism. As what is on the ministry’s website is only a selection from a longer conversation, we can assume that these statements are the ones that Moscow wants to make sure reach the public and especially Western decision-makers. They would do well paying very close attention.
The first thing we learn from Lavrov is that “we were not blind.” By which he means, as he explicates, that the Russian leadership was not “naïve” – and should not have been treated as naïve by the West: Moscow long understood that Western overreach was not acceptable in the long – or even, really, fairly short – term, and that something had to change one way or the other. Indeed, Russia knew this for, at least, more than a decade before the full escalation of the Ukraine War in February 2022. Lavrov mentions in this regard, as you would expect, Putin’s historic warning at the Munich Security Conference of 2007.
If Moscow has never been “blind,” then Lavrov’s implicit but clear message is that it will not start now. Russia’s last attempt to prevent the escalation of February 2022 was, the foreign minister points out, made in December 2021: “To the very last moment, we gave them [the West] a chance,” namely, in essence, to avoid the large-scale war that started in 2022 by negotiating a new security architecture.
Yet the West, that is, most of all the US and in particular then secretary of state Antony Blinken made clear to Moscow that it would get no say on the crucial issue of Ukraine joining NATO. The only non-concession Blinken offered in January 2022, Lavrov reveals, was to “limit the number of medium-range missiles” the West would “station in Ukraine in a certain way.”
That, we can add, if you know the context, was not an offer but a slap in the face. And that is how it was understood in Moscow as well. Lavrov, in this context, speaks of Western “hypocrisy” and “impunity,” stressing that the West’s refusal of any genuine compromise was principally irrational, not even based on a (mistaken) calculation of geopolitical advantage, but on, literally, “hubris.”
Lavrov also spells out why and how this experience of both Western intransigence and irrationality will continue to matter for the future: Russia’s president Vladimir Putin has already declared that there will be no return to how things were before February 2022: “nikogda” – never. This is an important message in and of itself, especially at this moment.
For, as Lavrov acknowledges, there is real – though not unlimited – improvement in the Russia-US relationship now. But nonetheless, under no, even the most favorable circumstances, will Moscow either forget the West’s attempt to degrade and regime-change it via a proxy war in Ukraine, nor will Moscow pretend to have forgotten. If there is anyone in Washington left thinking that the Russian leadership will give an inch for promises alone or neglect its own national interests (for instance in its relationships with China and other partners), you’ve been put on notice: forget about it.
At the same time, a return from “hubris” to “common sense” is what Lavrov does credit the new American president Donald Trump and his team with. This is crucial, because it indicates that Moscow, while not prepared to forget may be ready to forgive, in the sense that the Russian leadership is open for a pragmatic (a term Lavrov uses repeatedly) rebuilding of a constructive and mutually beneficial relationship with the US.
And there the Russian foreign minister has yet another, very concrete message for Washington: “Common sense dictates that the US should step aside” from the Ukraine War. In that sense, we can conclude that Moscow clearly sees the new American administration’s behavior over Ukraine as a key test: If Washington will, as currently fortunately seems likely, finally disengage from this disastrous Biden-era project, then Russia will take that as evidence of a new “common sense” in action, and not merely in words. In that case, more perspectives of, in effect, détente will open up. If, on the other hand, the US should revert to playing stupid games over Ukraine, then Moscow will conclude that the new “pragmatism” has stumbled at the very first hurdle. In that case, goodbye détente.
In the best case, according to Lavrov, the relationship between the two nuclear great powers will return to a kind of normality that was abandoned and almost destroyed by the Biden administration, namely, a frank recognition of both diverging and converging interests through respectful and reasonable dialogue between “two serious countries” that do not issue orders to each other.
Where interests, then, converge, mutual advantage can be extracted; where interests keep diverging, they can be managed to avoid escalation into conflict. This as well is a basic model of rational diplomacy that Western observers should pay close attention to. Lavrov explicitly compares the relationship that might ensue between Russia and the US to that between China and the US. That means, there is no hint of flowery-powery dreaming here: Tensions will persist, but at the same time, cooperation is possible and a “degradation into conflict” need not take place. The good news here is that the Russian foreign minister, at least for now, stresses that he is finding that rational attitude on the other side, for instance with the new US secretary of state Marco Rubio.
Where Lavrov does not see much hope is, you may have guessed, the NATO-EU Europeans. Not wanting to “be anti-European,” his remarks on them nevertheless are signally and – rest assured – deliberately unforgiving. To such an extent indeed that I, for one, feel he is letting America off all too lightly.
But regardless, Lavrov has, of course, a message, in blaming Europe in particular for hundreds of years of shaping a disruptive and violent West. Here is Russia’s foreign minister inviting the US to disassociate itself from that tradition. Fat chance, you may well say (and he would probably agree, actually). But historical veracity and future likelihood are not the point here. This is Moscow driving a wedge, as it should, between the NATO-EU Europeans and the US. So much for a real “reverse Nixon-Kissinger”: Future historians may well discuss the origins of the great American-European split of 2025 and how deftly Russia used it.
Lavrov had more to say. But let’s keep this note reasonably short. The essence of the above can perhaps best be summarized as: Get the US back in (on cautious, realistic terms), get the NATO-EU Europeans out, and keep the escalation potential down.
In other words, there is an optimistic message here: We can have a better world, slightly less prone to tumbling into World War III, on the basis of a new Russia-US relationship. Yet for the NATO-EU Europeans, to quote Dune, nothing. And they, I will add, have only themselves to blame.
Here’s to Russian-American pragmatism.
Russian Foreign Ministry
Excerpts from an interview with the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation S.V. Lavrov to the media holding “Red Star”, March 2, 2025
Machine translation: https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/news/2000799/
S.V. Lavrov: We were not blind. Back in 2007 in Munich, Russian President V.V. Putin warned that although we work with NATO, the European Union, and the G7 (while already being a member of the G8), we should not be made naive and taken for those who do not understand or see anything. If we are equal, then let us work equally.
We continued. V.V. Putin patiently explained to each country and partner from the Western “camp” at numerous meetings what he meant when he spoke in Munich, if anyone there did not understand something.
Until the very last moment, we gave them a chance not to bring things to a hot conflict. In December 2021, we told them, you are “talking down” the Minsk agreements , creating threats to our security, let’s sign the Treaty on European Security , where it will be ensured without drawing anyone into NATO. We were ignored.
Back in January 2022, I met with then US Secretary of State E. Blinken. He said that NATO is none of our business. They can only promise that the number of medium-range missiles they will deploy in Ukraine will be limited in a certain way. That’s all. This is also hypocrisy, impunity, exceptionalism, superhumanity. And what did it all lead to?
It was not for nothing that President V.V. Putin said at one of his major events last year that things would never be the way they were before February 2022. That is, he hoped until February, already understanding the futility of these hopes. But he gave them a chance until the very last moment. Sit down at the table, let’s agree on security, including the security of Ukraine, but so that measures to ensure it do not undermine ours. All this was being decided.
Now many politicians, former members of the government, public figures with “hindsight” (that is, they have something in common with the Russian peasant, who is strong “in hindsight”) say that it should have been done differently. But it turned out the way it did.
Our goals are clear, our objectives are defined, as they used to say in the Soviet Union.
Question: Speaking about 2022, everyone remembers that you had long negotiations with E. Blinken. When did you realize, at what stage, that it would not be possible to reach an agreement? How was the decision made that it was time to begin a special military operation ? Another month passed between your negotiations with E. Blinken.
S.V.Lavrov: I hoped that reason and common sense would prevail. But pride prevailed.
Not only the plans to materially draw Ukraine into NATO, to create bases in Crimea, on the Sea of Azov – all these plans existed. But in addition to this geopolitical plan, pride also played a big role. How is that possible? They say – no need, but we will agree? I am not exaggerating. This is in its “naked” form what they were guided by. This is sad. This is not common sense.
It is not for nothing that Donald Trump is constantly saying about any conflict, considering America’s position, that there must be common sense. And Washington’s common sense dictates to “step aside.”
Question: We remember that President of Russia Vladimir Putin said that the ball is in their court. For many, the talks in Riyadh came as a surprise. What preliminary work did you carry out and when did you start it to make these conversations happen?
Sergey Lavrov: There was no preliminary work. The presidents had a phone call at the initiative of Donald Trump. President Vladimir Putin threw this ball to him in 2018 in Helsinki at a news conference after the World Cup (this ball was the official FIFA ball). Donald Trump caught him, twisted him and threw him to the members of his delegation who were sitting in front of him.
We all proceeded from the fact that it was not D. Trump who cut off relations, but J. Biden, but it is one country. D. Trump was well aware of this and called himself. Before that, literally the day before, he sent his close adviser to Russia for a detailed conversation. Then, during a telephone conversation , at his suggestion, we agreed to meet in Riyadh. We flew there three days after the telephone conversation. Therefore, there was no preparation. I mean bilateral. Of course, each “team” prepared: ours in the Foreign Ministry, theirs in the State Department.
This was a completely normal conversation between two delegations. What is striking is that this normality was perceived as a sensation. This means that our Western partners during the term of J. Biden have managed to bring world public opinion to such a state that it perceives a normal conversation as something out of the ordinary.
We will never think alike on every issue of world politics. We acknowledged this in Riyadh. And the Americans acknowledged it. They themselves, in fact, said it. Where we see a coincidence of interests, common sense suggests that it is foolish not to use it in order to translate it into some practical actions and obtain mutually beneficial results. Where interests do not coincide (US Secretary of State M. Rubio also said this), it is the duty of responsible powers to prevent this mismatch from degenerating into confrontation. This is absolutely our position.
By the way, this is the format in which relations between the United States and China are built. They have a huge number of disagreements. The Americans are announcing many sanctions against China in order to suppress a competitor. Not so much as against us. Americans and Europeans are imposing 100% duties on electric cars. This is just unscrupulous competition. But I return to the model of relationships. Despite all these disagreements, and the fact that from time to time the top leaders of the United States and China and ministers accuse the other side of some illegal actions, primarily in the economic sphere, politics and security are also heard.
Read how Chinese ministers talk about the West’s plans in the Taiwan Strait or in the South China Sea. This is a very sharp counteraction. I understand the Chinese comrades when the West says that they adhere to the “one China” policy, which means that China is united and Taiwan is part of it. But having said that they are in favor of the “one China” policy, they are all saying that the status quo cannot be touched. And what is the “status quo”? It is an independent Taiwan. Therefore, there is a lot of cunning here.
It is not for nothing that a representative of the Chinese Ministry of Defense recently said that they are firmly in favor of a peaceful settlement, but do not rule out the use of military force if we are “led by the nose.” Something like this. At the same time, the dialogue between Beijing and Washington has never been interrupted. I believe that this is exactly the model that should be in relations between any two states. Especially between Russia and the United States, which, on the one hand, can find coinciding interests and do a lot of mutually beneficial things, and on the other hand, they are obliged not to lead to war in the event of a divergence of interests.
Even when Donald Trump was first elected, many politicians fell into euphoria. Now they also fall into it.
The United States still has the same goal – to be the first country in the world. Under Joe Biden, under Barack Obama and the Democrats in general, they tried to do this, subjugating everything and everything, paying for this support, as they pay for NATO, as they paid Japan and South Korea by creating outposts with the participation of NATO with nuclear components.
Donald Trump, he is a pragmatist. His slogan is common sense. It means (everyone sees this) a transition to a different way of doing things. But the goal is still “MAGA” (Make America Great Again). Now he has a new cap: “Everything that Donald Trump promised has been done.” This gives a lively, human character to politics. Therefore, it is interesting to be with him.
His team, Secretary of State Miguel Rubio and National Security Adviser Mark Waltz, are absolutely sane people in every sense of the word. They talk on the basis that they do not command us, and we do not command them. It’s just that two serious countries sat down to talk about where they had something wrong and what their predecessor had messed up in four years, destroying all channels of contact without exception, imposing a number of sanctions, followed by the expulsion of American companies, and suffering losses of hundreds of billions of dollars.
Question: Apparently, this has been going on for quite a long time, if not for the entire post-war history. During your work at the UN, you were in a constructive dialogue and signed joint documents with the American side. And they violated these agreements, what was declared, literally in a matter of months. This was the case with Kosovo, with Iraq. A month before former Secretary of State Colin Powell’s speech, you had a joint document with the US representative on the need to settle the dialogue, etc. How did you react to such things?
Sergey Lavrov: This has already become habitual. You are absolutely right. The attempt to “cheat” everyone, to present their position as the only correct one, continues.
This was the case even under US Secretary of State Colin Powell. We also worked closely with him. I am sure that he did not know what was in the test tube (what kind of white powder it was) that he shook at the UN Security Council and said that the then President of Iraq Saddam Hussein “did not live.” He was simply framed by CIA officers.
I don’t want to be anti-European. However, the current situation confirms the idea that many historians explain. Over the past 500 years (when the West has more or less formed in the form in which it has survived to this day, of course, with some changes), all the tragedies of the world originated in Europe or happened thanks to European politics. Colonizations, wars, crusaders, the Crimean War, Napoleon, the First World War, A. Hitler. In retrospect, the Americans did not play any inflammatory or “incendiary” role.
And now, after Joe Biden’s “term”, people have come who want to be guided by common sense. They openly say that they want to end all wars, they want peace. Who demands the “continuation of the banquet” in the form of war? Europe.
Danish Prime Minister Mark Frederiksen said that “for Ukraine now peace is worse than war.” British Prime Minister Kevin Starmer, who followed French President Emmanuel Macron to persuade US President Donald Trump not to end “this story” so quickly, and at the same time boasted that this year Britain would make its largest contribution in the form of weapons to Ukraine, that is, directly contradicting Donald Trump and stating that they would “pump up” the Kiev regime. President Emmanuel Macron is running around with some ideas, just like Christopher Starmer. They say that so many thousands of peacekeepers are being trained, they will provide them with air cover. This is also impudence.
First of all, no one asks us. President Donald Trump understands everything. He said that it is too early to say when there will be a settlement: “This issue can be discussed, but the consent of the parties will be needed.” He behaves correctly.
This plan to introduce “peacekeepers” into Ukraine is a continuation of the “incitement” of the Kyiv regime to war against us. These “guys” are “trampled” on the Minsk agreements . They admitted this quite recently. Their co-authors (our western neighbors) were not going to comply with them, and by handing over their weapons, they brought to power first Petr Poroshenko and then Vladimir Zelensky “on their own bayonets.” It was they who “inspired” him to make a 180-degree turn, although German Foreign Minister Anna Baerbock might have regarded it as 360 degrees.
Vladimir Zelensky turned 180 degrees from a man who came to power on the slogans of peace, on the slogans “Leave the Russian language, this is our common language, our common culture” (this is all on the Internet) and in six months turned into a pure Nazi and, as President of Russia Vladimir Putin rightly said, into a traitor to the Jewish people.
Just as they brought him to power “on bayonets” and pushed him forward, they now also want to prop him up with their “bayonets” in the form of peacekeeping units. But this will mean that the root causes will not disappear.
When we ask these “thinkers” what will hypothetically happen to the part that they will take under control, they answer that nothing – Ukraine will remain there. I asked one “comrade”: will the Russian language be banned there? He said nothing. They cannot utter words of condemnation of what has happened. No other language has been subject to such aggression. But imagine if French or German were banned in Switzerland, or English was banned in Ireland. Now the Irish there want “a little” self-determination. If they tried to ban English now, they would “shake” the entire UN for all its “columns”, demanding the condemnation of Ireland.
And here it is “possible”. You talk to them in the face, but they don’t answer. This is just like I (soon to be three years old) publicly at UN meetings, and meeting with the press, I ask to help us get at least some information on Bucha (a tragedy that was used to impose sanctions on us). These scenes were shown by the BBC two days after not a single one of our soldiers was already there. We are asking for only one thing now (I have already despaired of counting on anything more): can I see the list of those people whose corpses were shown on the BBC channel? I even publicly asked UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres about this at a meeting of the Security Council, and more than once.
The last time was in September 2024. I was in New York for the General Assembly session. I had a final press conference , the entire world press was there (there were about seventy of them), and I told them: “Guys, you are journalists, aren’t you professionally interested in finding out what happened there?”
We have officially requested information from the UN Human Rights Office (they have a “mission on Ukraine” within this Office, which was not created by consensus – they did not consult with anyone) about the names of those people who were shown there already dead. There is no reaction at all.
And I shamed the journalists too. It was already 2.5 years after this tragedy, when this BBC Bucha was shown on the screen and in social networks. It was a “news explosion”. “Three days and it’s all gone?” I say, “Did they tell you to keep it down?”
I know half the journalists there well. They have been working there for a long time. Can’t they send a journalistic request to the Ukrainians? No one does anything. The “command” came through and that’s it.
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